Q & A
You may have other questions,
these are just ones I was asking when I first started looking and
sometimes had trouble getting the answers for. These answers are
simply my opinion and my view of things. There is of course
always other peoples view. I will update this now and then as people
ask me various things. Have any other questions though, just contact me
at
gypsyhorses@westnet.com.au
What is a Gypsy Cob?
A cob type
bred by the Romany people in the UK and Ireland. Ideally a scaled
down Shire with some pony characteristics such as a sweeter head. Really a
kind of pony draught with the combination of the UK bred draughts and
UK native pony breeds. Usually around 14hh but the size range
can be as low as 12 or 11hh and over 15.2hh. Most often Piebald or
Skewbald but comes in all colours. Good bone, movement and feather are prized.
Derived from many, many breeds, whatever was available at the
time, probably a lot of Welsh Cob or similar. Any mixture of Drafts
and native ponies really though. However in more recent times mostly
only feathered breeds, such as Shires, were used and even more
recently the Dales and Fells ponies were used. As the Gypsy lifestyle
became less transient the larger draft type was no longer needed
and the small pony ones have become very popular. Their draft
heritage is still very evident though. Good temperament is a must,
ill tempered cobs were just not tolerated in the travelling
lifestyle hence the Gypsy Cob has one of most people friendly
temperaments you will find.
The
broken colour so common in the Gypsy Cobs has always been around
in the UK. However this meant the broken coloured horses were seen as 'common'
by the gentry and not wanted in their breeding programs. As
breed stud books for Welsh ponies, Fells, even Shires were started eventually
the coloured horses were discouraged to the point that no more were allowed to
be registered. This meant the broken coloureds were cheap and the
mostly likely to be used by the Gypsies. When it was time for war,
again the coloured hoses were left behind as it was thought their
colour would be against them on the war fields. Also the accepted
prejudice was that they were inferior horses. Again the Gypsies had
lots of coloured horses to chose from which became very popular with
them especially with their markings making individuals very easy to
recognise.
Why is the APSB, a pony society, registering Gypsy "Cobs"?
This has been asked a
lot lately so I thought I should try and answer it here. The Gypsy
Cob seems to be a hard breed to group with anything else. Their
draft characteristics means some people group them with the drafts.
Having shown them against the huge Shires though the Gypsy Cobs look
somewhat comical along side! In the UK cob types are definitely not
grouped with the draught breeds. cobs are.. well, just Cobs!!! For
those of us outside the UK it's sometimes seems a hard concept to
grasp! The Gypsy Cobs aren't just any UK coloured cob though,
but a specific type the Romany people breed for and
value.
When a group of us were
showing at the Melbourne Summer Royal it became obvious the group
the Gypsy Cobs most seemed like were the Mountain and Moorland
group. Many of these also are heavy ponies and cobs with a lot of
the same characteristics we prize in the Gypsy Cobs. Just a bit more
hair in the Gypsies!! This led us to approach the APSB about
possible inclusion in their registry. Not only would this obviously
benefit the Gypsy Cob breeders but their body type (and even size)
made the APSB to us, an obvious choice. With Australia's love of
ponies, unlike the Americans who try to buy the biggest Gypsy Cobs
they can find, people here seem much more likely to like the pony
sized gypsy cobs, or smaller cobs. This means registering in the
APSB no longer seems such a far fetched idea. The APSB have had no
problem registering Welsh Cobs around 15.2hh, and have the bigger
pony and even cob sizes in the Fjords, Highlands etc.. With the
Gypsy Cobs in Australia so far measuring from 13hh to 15.2hh, height
seems no conflict. More about their height here.
When the registry
was set up, there was talk about having two sections. One for "Pony
Cobs" under 14hh and a separate section for those over 14hh.
However with the numbers still so low this was deemed un-necessary.
Thus when numbers for shows increase the "cobs" can be further
divided up for classes then. Thus no matter what their height, their
breed name is "Gypsy Cob".
Can I register
my coloured Clydesdale cross as Gypsy Cob? Or, My
horse is coloured with a bit of feather can I register
it?
This is
a very common question. The Gypsy Cob registeries aren't a coloured draught society,
they are a registry for the specific type of horse the Gypsy/Romany
people prize. This means no, Gypsy Cob/Vanner registeries won't be
registering just any coloured, semi feathered horses. Only a
true cob type directly decended from the Gypsy herds of the UK. The
APSB will keep the stud book for the Gypsy Cobs in Australia. To
be registered a cob must meet the standard and provide import papers/passport
from the UK, or DNA verification proving bred from
horses from the UK. Alternatively there is a separate registry (not
the APSB) for breeding up. But still one parent
must be a 'proper' Gypsy Cob or
Vanner.
What is breeding
up?
Due to our isolation,
Australia and NZ have a history of breeding up new breeds. This
includes Cattle and Horse breeds, and probably others. Basically you
select mares similar in type to what you are aiming for, they
are crossed back to the original breed. Filly foals are kept and
crossed back again to the original breed, and so forth. Until you
have a horse that is deemed 'pure'. Or so close to it that the
outside blood is minimal. Sometimes after one or two crosses the
foal can look just like the the original breed. However most good
breeding up programs don't stop there, they keep crossing back to
the original breed so as to concentrate the genetics of the original
breed before being accepted as 'pure'.
As to wether Gypsy Cobs/Vanners need or should
be allowed to be bred up has many different opinions. :) With
the amount of imports coming in I really don't think breeding up is
needed to make the breed viable in Australia. Which leaves breeding
up only done because people want a less expensive way to get a Gypsy Cob
perhaps? If so, this may not be in the best interests of
establishing a breed? The US registeries don't allow the
Gypsy Cob/Vanners to have any outside blood once they are in the
US.
So how do I know my Gypsy Horse is a
purebred Gypsy Cob?
This is where you must make sure you do your
research before you buy. There are dealers in both the UK and
the US that will try and sell anything that is coloured with a
bit of feather as a prized Gypsy Cob. The best way to buy, is from
someone with a good reputation. Ask around, have a look at horses
bought and ask other opinions of these horses. A seller should be
able to give you a pretty good history of the horse, pictures of
sire and dam. You should be able to get DNA from both sire and dam
to prove parentage. Although, on its own this doesn’t prove it’s a
purebred Cob. It at least tells you the breeder is proud enough of
the horse to tell you how it was bred. It also helps you see the
type that your horse may breed etc.. Many places make
up bloodlines. Many of the well known horses now have DNA on
record. If someone is going to quote bloodlines that will push a
price up, make sure you can test for it. There are however many good
but unknown, as yet, bloodlines out there.
Don’t buy from
fairs unless you really know what you
are looking for, not that there aren’t good horses there but
would you usually buy a horse from an auction? The same buyer beware
rules apply.
Most coloured cobs in the
UK and Ireland aren’t the 'Gypsy Cob' but often have a bit of Gypsy
Cob blood in them. Many coloured horses of cob type are common bred
crossbreds and many are sold
as horse meat. Gypsies cull their herds heavily, so if a horse isn’t
owned by a Gypsy that can proudly tell you generations of it’s bloodlines,
chances are that it was a cull, sold on as a foal. Many of the
horses sold to America are simply these. Some are nice types, some
are not. Of course there have been beautifully bred horses go to
America too. European ‘Tinker’ horses are also mostly made up of
these culls. Bought in bulk and shipped over as youngsters. Of
course some grow up to be good types and some bad types still
produce a good foal. But on the whole quality can be average over
there. You can buy a good cob without a history but make sure you
know what you are looking for, or buy from someone who
does.
How can these
cobs be purebred when they are still crossed with other
breeds?
The Cobs really
are a very new breed so heaps of horses only a few generations
back may have a Shire horse or in later years a Dales or Fell pony
in the bloodlines. The big drafts are rarely used these days as
most Gypsy people prefer their cobs smaller pony sized with a sweet head.
Some breeder’s use a bit of outside blood and some don’t. To
understand how this works for the Gypsy people though, you have to
understand that they are much more ruthless at culling than we would
be. They will use the cross, it if works, good, it will be brought
into the breeding program. If not, off to the sales they go. Most
Gypsy breeders value their bloodlines highly and would only outcross
to something exceptional. Of course there are good and bad breeders as
with anything. Most good Romany breeders are
very proud of their generations of cob to cob breeding. No
out-crossing will be allowed with Australian bred horses, this is
mainly because too many people
have a different idea of what the perfect Gypsy Cob should be like.
Some would like it bigger, or more draft like, some like a lighter
boned riding horses. We really can’t afford to mess with it and
change the fundamental Gypsy Cob type, what the gypsies themselves
do with their breed is their business.
What makes the
Gypsy Cob a breed then?
The fact that it is a
type that reproduces itself. That is the accepted definition of a
breed. To be a registered breed as we understand it, horses that
meet the standard will be registered and their foals will be the
start of this new breed in Australia.
What is DNA
testing?
DNA testing at this stage simply
tells us if the said parents of a horse are indeed that. All horses
to be registered with the APSB will have their DNA on file. This
will simply prove, once they have a foal, that the foal is out of
or by that horse. All Australian bred foals will have to have their
sire and dams DNA on file to be registered. Getting DNA from horses
parents in the UK can be difficult. However if you ask your seller
or importer, they can often get it for you. Your imported horse won’t
be refused registration without it as long as it meets all the other
registration criteria.
What is a Vanner?
In simplistic terms a Vanner is
simply a horse that pulls a van, a harness horse if you like.
Historically a light horse pulling the Londan Vans, then as they
were no longer the needed the vanners pulled the odd job men's
carts, hence possibly why the insult of calling a good cob a vanner
to some folk. However over the years this term has come to mean
usually a slightly bigger, heavier type of horse, a draft horse with
a light of light horse mixed in, strong enough to pull the Vardos or
living wagons. Probably as this is where cart horses were more often
used in later times. Can be of Gypsy Cob breeding or not. Often not,
at least not a purebred. The Coloured Horse and Pony Association in
the UK, I believe has a Vanner section for bigger, heavier draft
type of coloured horses. In Europe many of the Tinker societies over
there have a Vanner section, again for the bigger types. They also
have a Cob section, Grai and Scudder. The Europeans though will
usually register any type of Gypsy Horse, not just the prized Cobs.
The Cob section in Europe isn’t necessarily these prized cobs
either. Confused?!!
In America Vanner means something
completely different. The Gypsy Vanner Horse Society is one
of four associations over there that register the prized Cobs.
As the Gypsy people themselves don’t give the horses any sort of
breed name this was the name chosen by one man in America. The other
societies use the name Gypsy Cob or Gypsy Horse. The gypsies
themselves don’t really call them anything but the 'Cobs' and
sometimes 'proper cobs' which doesn’t really mean much as there are
heaps of various different cob type horses in the UK and Ireland. So
although there may be heaps of Gypsy horses of cob type, only a
small percentage of these are the actual 'Gypsy Cobs'! Irish Cobs
usually include both the proper Cobs as well as the Gypsy horses of
cob type.
Note: I have used heavy here to mean
heavy bone, but to the Gypsy people heavy often refers to heavy
in hair.
What is a Drum
Horse?
This, like the Vanner, is
a name for a job a horse does plus a label for a breed of horse in
America. The British Drum Horse isn’t a breed but simply a horse
that carries the big drums in parades. These horses are usually
quite big and calm in nature. Many of them may have at least a bit of Gypsy Cob
and other Draft blood in them. Many also are coloured and have some
sort of feather.
The American Drum
Horse is a new breed being created, inspired by the British Drum
Horse. They are usually a cross between a Gypsy Cob and either a Shire
or Clydesdale. Ideally coloured and at least 16hh but of course
being more a crossbred rather than an established breed at this
stage, many foals fall outside of the ideal. There are two societies
that register these horses. Both societies agree that the Drum Horse
is not a Gypsy horse but at this stage require at least 1/8 Gypsy
Cob blood to be fully registered to keep it apart from the Shire
and Clydesdale. One also allows Friesian blood. This supports
their vision of a big, heavy to medium boned coloured riding horse. That
still keeps the feather. The other seems to be a more coloured(and
feathered) draft. But in with
the Drum Horse ideal, still consider the Drum Horse a riding horse
as much as a driving horse.
The Drum Horse also
caters for those people that may love the colour and temperament of
the Gypsy Cob but would
like it in a bigger package.