Q & A

You may have other questions, these are just ones I was asking when I first started looking and sometimes had trouble getting the answers for. These answers are simply my opinion and my view of things. There is of course always other peoples view. I will update this now and then as people ask me various things. Have any other questions though, just contact me at gypsyhorses@westnet.com.au


What is a Gypsy Cob?

A cob type bred by the Romany people in the UK and Ireland. Ideally a scaled down Shire with some pony characteristics such as a sweeter head. Really a kind of pony draught with the combination of the UK bred draughts and UK native pony breeds. Usually around 14hh but the size range can be as low as 12 or 11hh and over 15.2hh. Most often Piebald or Skewbald but comes in all colours. Good bone, movement and feather are prized. Derived from many, many breeds, whatever was available at the time, probably a lot of Welsh Cob or similar. Any mixture of Drafts and native ponies really though. However in more recent times mostly only feathered breeds, such as Shires, were used and even more recently the Dales and Fells ponies were used. As the Gypsy lifestyle became less transient the larger draft type was no longer needed and the small pony ones have become very popular. Their draft heritage is still very evident though. Good temperament is a must, ill tempered cobs were just not tolerated in the travelling lifestyle hence the Gypsy Cob has one of most people friendly temperaments you will find.

The broken colour so common in the Gypsy Cobs has always been around in the UK. However this meant the broken coloured horses were seen as 'common' by the gentry and not wanted in their breeding programs. As breed stud books for Welsh ponies, Fells, even Shires were started eventually the coloured horses were discouraged to the point that no more were allowed to be registered. This meant the broken coloureds were cheap and the mostly likely to be used by the Gypsies. When it was time for war, again the coloured hoses were left behind as it was thought their colour would be against them on the war fields. Also the accepted prejudice was that they were inferior horses. Again the Gypsies had lots of coloured horses to chose from which became very popular with them especially with their markings making individuals very easy to recognise.


Why is the APSB, a pony society, registering Gypsy "Cobs"?

This has been asked a lot lately so I thought I should try and answer it here. The Gypsy Cob seems to be a hard breed to group with anything else. Their draft characteristics means some people group them with the drafts. Having shown them against the huge Shires though the Gypsy Cobs look somewhat comical along side! In the UK cob types are definitely not grouped with the draught breeds. cobs are.. well, just Cobs!!! For those of us outside the UK it's sometimes seems a hard concept to grasp! The Gypsy Cobs aren't just any UK coloured cob though, but a specific type the Romany people breed for and value. 

When a group of us were showing at the Melbourne Summer Royal it became obvious the group the Gypsy Cobs most seemed like were the Mountain and Moorland group. Many of these also are heavy ponies and cobs with a lot of the same characteristics we prize in the Gypsy Cobs. Just a bit more hair in the Gypsies!! This led us to approach the APSB about possible inclusion in their registry. Not only would this obviously benefit the Gypsy Cob breeders but their body type (and even size) made the APSB to us, an obvious choice. With Australia's love of ponies, unlike the Americans who try to buy the biggest Gypsy Cobs they can find, people here seem much more likely to like the pony sized gypsy cobs, or smaller cobs. This means registering in the APSB no longer seems such a far fetched idea. The APSB have had no problem registering Welsh Cobs around 15.2hh, and have the bigger pony and even cob sizes in the Fjords, Highlands etc.. With the Gypsy Cobs in Australia so far measuring from 13hh to 15.2hh, height seems no conflict. More about their height here.

When the registry was set up, there was talk about having two sections. One for "Pony Cobs" under 14hh and a separate section for those over 14hh. However with the numbers still so low this was deemed un-necessary. Thus when numbers for shows increase the "cobs" can be further divided up for classes then. Thus no matter what their height, their breed name is "Gypsy Cob".



Can I register my coloured Clydesdale cross as Gypsy Cob? Or, My horse is coloured with a bit of feather can I register it?

This is a very common question. The Gypsy Cob registeries aren't a coloured draught society, they are a registry for the specific type of horse the Gypsy/Romany people prize. This means no, Gypsy Cob/Vanner registeries won't be registering just any coloured, semi feathered horses. Only a true cob type directly decended from the Gypsy herds of the UK. The APSB will keep the stud book for the Gypsy Cobs in Australia. To be registered a cob must meet the standard and provide import papers/passport from the UK, or DNA verification proving bred from horses from the UK. Alternatively there is a separate registry (not the APSB) for breeding up. But still one parent must be a 'proper' Gypsy Cob or Vanner.  


What is breeding up?

Due to our isolation, Australia and NZ have a history of breeding up new breeds. This includes Cattle and Horse breeds, and probably others. Basically you select mares similar in type to what you are aiming for, they are crossed back to the original breed. Filly foals are kept and crossed back again to the original breed, and so forth. Until you have a horse that is deemed 'pure'. Or so close to it that the outside blood is minimal. Sometimes after one or two crosses the foal can look just like the the original breed. However most good breeding up programs don't stop there, they keep crossing back to the original breed so as to concentrate the genetics of the original breed before being accepted as 'pure'.

As to wether Gypsy Cobs/Vanners need or should be allowed to be bred up has many different opinions. :)  With the amount of imports coming in I really don't think breeding up is needed to make the breed viable in Australia. Which leaves breeding up only done because people want a less expensive way to get a Gypsy Cob perhaps? If so, this may not be in the best interests of establishing a breed? The US registeries don't allow the Gypsy Cob/Vanners to have any outside blood once they are in the US.


So how do I know my Gypsy Horse is a purebred Gypsy Cob?

This is where you must make sure you do your research before you buy. There are dealers in both the UK and the US that will try and sell anything that is coloured with a bit of feather as a prized Gypsy Cob. The best way to buy, is from someone with a good reputation. Ask around, have a look at horses bought and ask other opinions of these horses. A seller should be able to give you a pretty good history of the horse, pictures of sire and dam. You should be able to get DNA from both sire and dam to prove parentage. Although, on its own this doesn’t prove it’s a purebred Cob. It at least tells you the breeder is proud enough of the horse to tell you how it was bred. It also helps you see the type that your horse may breed etc.. Many places make up bloodlines. Many of the well known horses now have DNA on record. If someone is going to quote bloodlines that will push a price up, make sure you can test for it. There are however many good but unknown, as yet, bloodlines out there.

Don’t buy from fairs unless you really know what you are looking for, not that there aren’t good horses there but would you usually buy a horse from an auction? The same buyer beware rules apply.

Most coloured cobs in the UK and Ireland aren’t the 'Gypsy Cob' but often have a bit of Gypsy Cob blood in them. Many coloured horses of cob type are common bred crossbreds and many are sold as horse meat. Gypsies cull their herds heavily, so if a horse isn’t owned by a Gypsy that can proudly tell you generations of it’s bloodlines, chances are that it was a cull, sold on as a foal. Many of the horses sold to America are simply these. Some are nice types, some are not. Of course there have been beautifully bred horses go to America too. European ‘Tinker’ horses are also mostly made up of these culls. Bought in bulk and shipped over as youngsters. Of course some grow up to be good types and some bad types still produce a good foal. But on the whole quality can be average over there. You can buy a good cob without a history but make sure you know what you are looking for, or buy from someone who does.


How can these cobs be purebred when they are still crossed with other breeds?

The Cobs really are a very new breed so heaps of horses only a few generations back may have a Shire horse or in later years a Dales or Fell pony in the bloodlines. The big drafts are rarely used these days as most Gypsy people prefer their cobs smaller pony sized with a sweet head. Some breeder’s use a bit of outside blood and some don’t. To understand how this works for the Gypsy people though, you have to understand that they are much more ruthless at culling than we would be. They will use the cross, it if works, good, it will be brought into the breeding program. If not, off to the sales they go. Most Gypsy breeders value their bloodlines highly and would only outcross to something exceptional. Of course there are good and bad breeders as with anything. Most good Romany breeders are very proud of their generations of cob to cob breeding. No out-crossing will be allowed with Australian bred horses, this is mainly because too many people have a different idea of what the perfect Gypsy Cob should be like. Some would like it bigger, or more draft like, some like a lighter boned riding horses. We really can’t afford to mess with it and change the fundamental Gypsy Cob type, what the gypsies themselves do with their breed is their business.

What makes the Gypsy Cob a breed then?

The fact that it is a type that reproduces itself. That is the accepted definition of a breed. To be a registered breed as we understand it, horses that meet the standard will be registered and their foals will be the start of this new breed in Australia.

What is DNA testing?

DNA testing at this stage simply tells us if the said parents of a horse are indeed that. All horses to be registered with the APSB will have their DNA on file. This will simply prove, once they have a foal, that the foal is out of or by that horse. All Australian bred foals will have to have their sire and dams DNA on file to be registered. Getting DNA from horses parents in the UK can be difficult. However if you ask your seller or importer, they can often get it for you. Your imported horse won’t be refused registration without it as long as it meets all the other registration criteria.

What is a Vanner?

In simplistic terms a Vanner is simply a horse that pulls a van, a harness horse if you like. Historically a light horse pulling the Londan Vans, then as they were no longer the needed the vanners pulled the odd job men's carts, hence possibly why the insult of calling a good cob a vanner to some folk. However over the years this term has come to mean usually a slightly bigger, heavier type of horse, a draft horse with a light of light horse mixed in, strong enough to pull the Vardos or living wagons. Probably as this is where cart horses were more often used in later times. Can be of Gypsy Cob breeding or not. Often not, at least not a purebred. The Coloured Horse and Pony Association in the UK, I believe has a Vanner section for bigger, heavier draft type of coloured horses. In Europe many of the Tinker societies over there have a Vanner section, again for the bigger types. They also have a Cob section, Grai and Scudder. The Europeans though will usually register any type of Gypsy Horse, not just the prized Cobs. The Cob section in Europe isn’t necessarily these prized cobs either. Confused?!!

In America Vanner means something completely different. The Gypsy Vanner Horse Society is one of four associations over there that register the prized Cobs. As the Gypsy people themselves don’t give the horses any sort of breed name this was the name chosen by one man in America. The other societies use the name Gypsy Cob or Gypsy Horse. The gypsies themselves don’t really call them anything but the 'Cobs' and sometimes 'proper cobs' which doesn’t really mean much as there are heaps of various different cob type horses in the UK and Ireland. So although there may be heaps of Gypsy horses of cob type, only a small percentage of these are the actual 'Gypsy Cobs'! Irish Cobs usually include both the proper Cobs as well as the Gypsy horses of cob type.

Note: I have used heavy here to mean heavy bone, but to the Gypsy people heavy often refers to heavy in hair.


What is a Drum Horse?

This, like the Vanner, is a name for a job a horse does plus a label for a breed of horse in America. The British Drum Horse isn’t a breed but simply a horse that carries the big drums in parades. These horses are usually quite big and calm in nature. Many of them may have at least a bit of Gypsy Cob and other Draft blood in them. Many also are coloured and have some sort of feather.

The American Drum Horse is a new breed being created, inspired by the British Drum Horse. They are usually a cross between a Gypsy Cob and either a Shire or Clydesdale. Ideally coloured and at least 16hh but of course being more a crossbred rather than an established breed at this stage, many foals fall outside of the ideal. There are two societies that register these horses. Both societies agree that the Drum Horse is not a Gypsy horse but at this stage require at least 1/8 Gypsy Cob blood to be fully registered to keep it apart from the Shire and Clydesdale. One also allows Friesian blood. This supports their vision of a big, heavy to medium boned coloured riding horse. That still keeps the feather. The other seems to be a more coloured(and feathered) draft. But in with the Drum Horse ideal, still consider the Drum Horse a riding horse as much as a driving horse.

The Drum Horse also caters for those people that may love the colour and temperament of the Gypsy Cob but would like it in a bigger package.